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On After Eight today, we're
going to speak of the computer.

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Is it possible it
might be harming

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the minds of our children?

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There's almost as much concern
about computer literacy today

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as there is about reading,
writing, and arithmetic.

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You can buy computer programs to
teach your children everything

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from French to algebra.

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More and more schools are using
the computers in the classroom.

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But could the computer
possibly be a dangerous toy?

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This man says yes.

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He is Professor Joseph
Weizenbaum, a computer pioneer.

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Also with me today is
Professor Michael Dertouzos.

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Both men are from MIT.

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Both have different
points of view.

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Gentlemen, welcome.

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Morning.

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Professor Weizenbaum,
let me start with you.

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You have said that the
computer encourages

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what you say are limiting
the thought process

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that the computer encourages.

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Like what?

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Well, I think that what one
does with computers generally

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is to build models of things.

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And a model of the
thing has necessarily

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to be a picture of that thing
in a very limited context.

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There are things about--

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there are things
in real life which

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don't fit into a framework
of logic and computation

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and so on.

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And I think that it's
possible and happens that when

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people deal with computer models
that it's rather like looking

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through a pair of binoculars.

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It may be that you see
some things enlarged

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and in more detail
than otherwise.

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But you cut out a lot too.

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But you don't see
the grand picture.

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Exactly.

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Not really a dangerous
toy in the sense

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that it's dangerous to anybody,
but just kind of a limiting.

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That's right.

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And I think that if it's
overdone, then it could--

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I suppose one could
use the word dangerous.

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Professor Dertouzos,
nonetheless, you

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see the classroom computer
as a useful classroom tool.

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How come?

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Well, I think we are
all very privileged

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to be in this great
information revolution in which

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the computer is going to
affect us very profoundly,

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probably more so than the
Industrial Revolution.

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That's my belief.

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And I think in the
schools, we ought

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to learn about the computer,
what makes it tick.

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And we ought to explore it.

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It's a little bit like
the old Wild West.

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The computer opens up horizons,
which are full of many flowers,

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and possibly very great
things in the future,

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but also some pitfalls.

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And I think we've got to
experiment in education.

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There are a lot of ways we can
use a computer in the school.

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What of your cohort's view
here that it basically

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limits your view of everything?

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I don't think it does.

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I think it expands your view.

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Let's take, for example,
the kind of uses

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you could have with a computer.

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First and foremost
is motivation.

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Just go to any
school today and look

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at the kids, how excited
they are about the computer.

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They're excited
because it's different.

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That's right, but motivation
is the number one pushing force

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for learning.

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If you don't have
motivation, in my opinion,

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learning is not very worthwhile.

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Now, how can you use it
once you're motivated?

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You could run little
experiments, models,

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as Joe says.

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For example, you
could be trying how

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it feels to throw a stone in a
different world, in the moon,

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or in the planet where the
gravity is maybe 10 times

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the gravity of the Earth.

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Or if you want to
be a little funny,

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you could try throwing it in a
planet where the atmosphere is

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heavier, thicker like yogurt.

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Now all this could teach
a child the various ways

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in which a projectile moves.

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You're talking about
an idyllic situation.

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We're basically disagreeing
about human nature

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here and what it's going
to do with this toy.

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I don't think so.

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I think we're
getting close to what

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we ought to be talking about.

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Mike is talking about
motivation in school.

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And it's certainly true
today that motivation is

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an enormous problem in school.

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There's lack of motivation
on the part of children.

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In New York City, for example,
the daily absentee rate

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is 33% and so on.

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So it is necessary to
motivate kids in school.

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But the computer
has often played

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the role of essentially a
solution looking for a problem.

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The problem, one problem of
many problems, in the schools

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today is motivation.

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What one ought to do is one
should look at that problem

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and say, what could
possibly be the cause of it?

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Instead, what happens is that
the computer is brought along.

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And because it motivates
to some extent it,

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it's seen as the solution
to the educational problem,

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and it isn't.

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There are lots and
other things wrong.

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The computer then
covers up in effect,

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or it makes it difficult
or even impossible to look

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at the real problem.

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Home computer sales,
classroom computer sales

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seems to seem to have peaked.

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And now they're hit a
flat period and some

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say they're going--

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I don't think so.

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Oh yes.

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They've hit a flat period.

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What should that tell us?

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I really don't believe that
they've hit a flat period.

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The computer market has been
and is rising at about 30%

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per year.

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And nowhere has there
been a flat period.

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It is not rising at nearly
the rate it was going.

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Yes it is.

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We disagree.

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We're looking at two--

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we're looking at two
different sets of numbers.

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My question to you is,
is the home computer

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destined to become
the CB of the '80s?

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The hula hoop of the '80s?

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I'm glad you brought this
analogy, because like a CB,

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it won't be very useful in its
present form, which is just

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talking to yourself
into your computer.

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But like a CB, when it starts
talking to other computers

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throughout the
whole country, when

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we have several million machines
interconnected and people can

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talk to each other,
and can exchange views,

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and can transact, can
buy and sell information,

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can buy and sell information
of services, labor,

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I think it's going to be a
very interesting period where

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we'll have an information
marketplace, a new way of life.

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I quite disagree.

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I want to get him anyway.

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I think that won't work.

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I think that the
home computer is

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going to suffer the
same fate, by and large,

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as the home movie camera.

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People had the
idea, and still have

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the idea, that if they
have a very expensive,

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a very good home
movie camera, then

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they can make very good movies.

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You still got to be a
good movie maker first.

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That's right.

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The trouble is you
have to have an idea.

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OK.

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And people forget that.

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Similarly, to write good
and interesting programs

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on a computer one
has to have an idea.

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Ideas are hard to come by.

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Professor Weizenbaum,
Professor Dertouzos,

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thank you both, gentlemen.

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We're moving up on 8:22.

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We'll come back in a moment,
but first this is Today on NBC.